Danielle Mik:

Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Pearl of Wisdom interview series again. Today, I’d like to introduce Mardi Webber. Hi, Mardi.

Mardi Webber:

Hi, Danielle. How are you?

Danielle Mik:

Good, thanks. How you going?

Mardi Webber:

I’m good, thank you.

Danielle Mik:

Look, thank you for joining us today, Mardi, very much appreciate it. We’re going to chat with you about the challenges of developing a mentally healthy workplace, and just giving people a bit of background about yourself. I know you’ve worked in the health and safety field for the last 30 years so you’re obviously well-experienced across both private and public sector, I understand, health and safety areas. You’re now a registered psychologist, and you’ve developed a strong focus on the recognition of importance of workplaces in addressing psychosocial hazards and the impact on psychological health of workers, and obviously, it’s a massive area.

Danielle Mik:

So you’ve joined ReturnToWorkSA. So, you’re in a very important role there, obviously, providing a focused approach for employers and guidance in the mental health in workplaces. So, you’re obviously well-credentialed in this space. Thank you for joining us. And look, obviously, we know mental health is a massive issue nationally across the board. Some of the general research, and obviously, these are the stats that I’ve gathered, but you read different papers, you’ll get different stats, but they all say similar things. About fifth of Aussies are experiencing mental health conditions. Less than half of those actually seek help. Three quarters, which is a massive number, say that mental health’s an important consideration when implying for a job. So, they actually do look at the employer and what their track record is in this space. A half believe the employer should be doing more to some support mental health in the workplace.

Danielle Mik:

And the PWC research shows that for every dollar invested, there is a $2 30 return. So, the dollars and cents are there to make sense for employers to invest in this space, and certainly, and many are, but there are still some behind the eight ball I believe, and not quite getting there. So, I’d love to talk with you today and get your input on what are employees stated needs for creating a mental healthy workplace, and what gets in the way, and those sorts of things. So, I’ll just head off with the first question. Do you feel for a start that employers have a good understanding of what it is to have a mentally healthy workplace and what that actually is?

Mardi Webber:

Okay. That’s actually a really good question to start. I think that it’s actually getting better. I think that, certainly, I’ve been in my role at ReturnToWorkSA for about the last five and a half years providing assistance to workplaces that do want to do more in the area of workplace mental health. I’ve seen a huge shift over those five years, a lot of workplaces now really engaged and wanting to do something around mentally healthy workplaces. I think if I’d say a good understanding, I think there’s a lot of workplaces that still want to do something, but they’re not quite sure how to go about it, or what does it really mean to create a mentally healthy workplace.

Mardi Webber:

And why I say that is that I still have some employers, I’ll say, “As far as creating a mentally healthy workplace, what do you see that means?” And they might say, “Well, we’re okay. We’ve got an EAP program in place.” So, I think there’s still this sort of simplistic view of what maybe a mentally healthy workplace is. So, it’s actually being able to provide some more knowledge and guidance to employers to say, “Look, this is what we mean when it comes in relation to a mentally healthy workplace.” It’s being able to provide that really positive workplace culture where people can… Ultimately, what we want is people to be actually be able to thrive at work, to actually wake up in the morning actually want to come to work, to feel like that their work does add meaning and value to their lives, and that their values actually align with what they’re doing at work as well. So, I can go into a bit more detail about what I view as a mentally healthy workplace if you want me to.

Danielle Mik:

Cool. Love to. Yes, go ahead.

Mardi Webber:

Yeah, yeah. So, I think in relation to a mentally healthy workplace, very simply, I see it as a workplace where we are providing just as much importance on mental health as you do physical health in the workplace, but all the latest research says around creating a mental healthy workplace, we really should be looking at sort of three key areas within, I guess, a realm of creating a mentally healthy workplace, and that is how do we, as I said before, promote that really positive workplace culture and environment. So, promoting the positive aspects of work, and that could be having really leaderships really role modeling mentally healthy workplace behaviors and visions and things like that or really having a very strong sense of connection within the workplace.

Mardi Webber:

We really want to be able to make sure that we’re protecting people while they’re at work. So, we want to be able to prevent harms. That’s the WHS bit. That’s really saying, “Okay, we might have really good systems and processes in place for managing physical hazards and risks, but we really need to make sure that we translate that and really focus on those psychological hazards and risks as well.” So, really looking at the working conditions within the workplace, and really looking at eliminating or minimum risks that can impact on both the physical and the psychological health.

Mardi Webber:

And then the third aspect is very much where that EAP fits. It’s about being able to support people that are stressed or struggling or have mental health conditions irrespective, of course, so that we can identify that within their work workplace, respond early, have capabilities to be able to have supportive conversations, and make sure that they’re getting the support that they need. Now, that could be an EAP, or it could be other community support. So, if it’s a work injury claim, it may well be obviously the supports that are provided through your claims agent and work injury specialists in that area as well.

Mardi Webber:

So, it’s not overly complicated. We talked off air about some workplaces find it a little bit scary or they think it’s very complicated. It’s not overly complicated at all. I think if you really think about what are we doing to provide a really positive and healthy workplace environment on a day to day, those day to day experiences, people really feel good about being at work, feel supported and valued, how do we from a health and safety perspective manage risks, both physical and psychological hazards and risk, and how do we provide that really supportive workplace environment where we can respond or support people that may be struggling.

Danielle Mik:

Yeah. And look, do you think employers are sometimes under the impression that perhaps they need an in-house specialist, like, “Oh, we’ve got to really have our own registered psychologist to do this”? Do you ever sort of hear that?

Mardi Webber:

Yeah, I used to hear that quite a lot. I used to hear that, well, we can’t run a session on mental health unless we’ve got a counselor, a trained counselor or a mental health psychologist or someone doing that. But again, I think, again, that’s changing. I think that the more knowledge and education that workplaces have in relation to that, and the more that they’re skilling up in-house their own staff, the more there’s a realization, well, no actually, we don’t need to have an in-house specialist, but we may at times need to bring specialists in for particular projects or tasks. So, more and more now, you’ll find that the wellbeing is being put perhaps placed with people and culture, or it might be a part of WHS, or if you’re really large, maybe you may have a dedicated wellbeing person.

Mardi Webber:

But I think what I say is that if you are looking at saying, well, people and culture, you’ve got wellbeing now, it’s not just a matter of saying, “Well, you’ve got wellbeing, off you go.” It’s saying, “Okay, we’d like you to take hold of wellbeing and really roll out a comprehensive or a program that’s going to have an impact. So, a strategy that we want to put forward.” So, it’s being able to make sure that they’ve got the time and resources to be actually be able to roll that out effectively, and also, do they need some upskilling in that area. So, yeah, it’s making sure that they’re given the tools and resources so that they can actually do that effectively, and even if it’s going to be part of their job description, building it into their job description so that they’re actually recognized for the work that they’re doing in this space as well.

Danielle Mik:

Because I know historically a number of employers did see creating mentally healthy workplace is a bowl of fruit on the table, a resilience program, and an EAP, do you think there’s employers that are still stuck in that sort of thinking and not really thinking about it’s a systemic issue that they’ve got to address, the systems of operations and whatnot in addition to culture?

Mardi Webber:

Yeah, definitely. I think there is still… There’s a big recognition we need to do something around mental health. Well, what should we do? Let’s hold an R U Okay?Day. Mental health month’s coming up. Right, let’s get involved in that. I think there’s still needs to be a greater understanding that we’re not thinking about something that we just do once a year. We really need to look at how we can actually embed mental health in the way that we do work. Workplace for everyday work. So, what are we doing around our policies, our work plans, what training are we providing? How we embedding it in our WHS systems? So, it’s really that embedding process. So, that it’s going to be the way we do things around here. It’s not going to drop off. It’s not something we just say, “Right. We roll out once a year for R U Okay?Day.” So, I think, yeah, more work needs to be done to really make sure that it is actually embedded in the workplace.

Danielle Mik:

And look, one of the things that I’ve heard from a few consultants that work in this area is that they still see there’s a lot of focus on the fixing the individual rather than fixing the workplace. What are your thoughts about that?

Mardi Webber:

Yeah. Well, I guess that sort of blame culture, I guess, is probably what I’d frame it as. Again, I think the more sophisticated workplaces become, the more understanding that they have around these issues. It’s realizing that it’s not just about that individual. It’s actually about the whole systems around them and the culture. It’s a bit like workplace bullying. You might have workplace bullying. If you are just looking at this individual and this individual, you’re actually not looking at the whole sort of culture, work processes systems that actually may have led up to that situation in the first place. It is very much about being able to identify. I mean, that’s why it’s you need to have those really good, robust health and safety systems in place to actually say, “Well, what are those risk factors that actually might be leading to that situation in the first place?”

Mardi Webber:

First of all, you’ve got to have psychological safety. You’ve got to have someone that is actually says, “Look, I’m in a safe environment. I feel like I can put up my hand and say that my workloads are getting excessive or I can’t cope.” So, what you want then is a mentally healthy workplace would be saying, “Okay.” instead of saying, “Well, what’s wrong with that person? Why aren’t they coping? Everyone else seems to be coping,” it’s saying, “Okay, well, let’s sit down. Let’s review your workloads and see what we can do to actually see what the key priorities are, distribute the resources,” whatever it might be, but then actually view it as a whole and say, “Well, what is it that’s leading to these high workloads? Why does this person perceive that we’ve got high workloads? Are there some inefficiencies, frustrations? Is it suddenly that we’re getting a whole lot of more complaints coming in?” Whatever it may be that is driving that situation.

Mardi Webber:

So, again, I think that it is if we really want effective change and we talked about that prevention piece, if we really want effective change, we really want prevention, we really want to prevent these injuries and psychological injuries happening in the first place, we really do need to look at the whole of our work design and workplace cultures to say, “Well, what can we do to really provide this really positive workplace environment where people do feel supported and valued, but how can we also really make sure that we are minimizing risks?” as is reasonably practical as much as possible. Rather than saying, “Yes, we’ve got high workloads,” we need to take the next step and say, “Well how high are they? Are they likely to cause harm?” And then what can we do to actually eliminate or minimize those workloads to the best of our ability. And of course, the most effective way to do that is actually to ask our staff what they think are the issues as well and get that consultation piece and buy-in from staff as well.

Danielle Mik:

So, Mardi, what do you think really are the main barriers that employers have for going down this path? Is it because they perceive it’ll cost them on lot of money, it’ll take too long, it’s a distraction from business, it will reduce productivity, it’ll open a Pandora’s box and lead to more workers comp claims? Is there any of those or some of those or more a combinations?

Mardi Webber:

It’s probably all of those. I talk to a lot of middle management. Middle management, what they’ll say is, “I really want to do something. The barrier is senior management.” So, it’s then saying, “Well, okay, it’s really important that we get senior management on board.” They really need to understand the importance of creating a mentally healthy workplace. So, what are the drivers for senior management? What are they?

Danielle Mik:

[crosstalk].

Mardi Webber:

Is it money? Is it being an employer of choice and make sure that they’re retaining their staff? Is it that they’re in a maybe a caring sector and they really want to provide the best possible care to their patients or to their clients? Whatever is the lever to really actually understand that and I think to build a business case and really show them the importance of creating a mentally healthy workplace and what are the positive business benefits associated with that. So, getting senior management commitment and then getting them on board is absolutely critical.

Mardi Webber:

Then I think once you’ve got senior management on board, sometimes a barrier can be, well, it could be money. How much is this going to cost? We really don’t have a lot of money to actually invest in this. So, it’s actually being able to say, “Well, do you know what? A lot of things don’t actually cost a lot of money. There’s a lot of free tools and resources out there.” So, what I would say is build your mentally healthy workplace based what budget you’ve got, and build it over time, and then you’ll start seeing some really positive benefits and really see the benefits of actually investing more in this area.

Mardi Webber:

And then it’s about, well, okay, well, we want to do something, but where do we start? There’s just so much information. We had to do a session the other day for leaders, and my colleague, I think she googled mental health in the workplace, and I think within four seconds, I don’t know how many millions of entries came up, but there’s just so much information out there, and I think that you can be overwhelmed. And so, I just have no idea where to start, what do I take notice of.

Mardi Webber:

And I think that’s where I find a lot of my role is just pointing people in the right direction and saying, “Look, here’s some reputable tools and resources. Here’s some reputable websites. I think this is a really great start. Why don’t you have a read of X, Y, and Z? Then if you’ve got any questions or you want further information or you still feel stuck, then come back to me.” We run a session on an introduction to a mentally healthy workplace. It’s just to get people started, just to point them in the right direction to let them know the tools and resources that are available.

Mardi Webber:

And I could probably go on for more barriers. I mean, I think stigma’s still one. I think that’s getting better. I think stigma towards mental health the whole what you were saying, Pandora’s box, let’s not talk about it, it’s a private issue, not a workplace issue. And then if someone does have a mental health condition, is there stigma or do they feel like there’s stigma within the workplace.

Mardi Webber:

I think all of those, that type of stigma, discriminatory behavior obviously is a massive barrier, but I think it is a barrier that we are seeing reduce, particularly during COVID. I think COVID has really made, I guess, mental health, everyone in the community is so much more aware of mental health. I think it’s really shown that it doesn’t discriminate. Everyone and anyone’s been sort of impacted in some way. And so, it’s been a real leveler that way, and I think that it’s provided a lot more opportunity for workplaces to talk about mental health and to really understand what they need to support their workers or to manage change that’s happening within their workplace so that they can continue to work or continue to operate their business, but also bring their people along with them during that process as well. I think that’s changing, definitely.

Danielle Mik:

So, Mardi, do you think that claims agents and people that are working with employers, sadly once something has occurred, do you think that the claims agents are perhaps rehabilitation council are sort of working to return people to work have got a role to play in helping employers go down that path?

Mardi Webber:

I think it’s absolutely critical. I think that is so important. I think that we can all play such an important role and that I think is just for, if we, as a group [inaudible]. Sorry, I’m just getting a bit of feedback there. I was hearing my voice. That’s all right. It’s stopped now.

Danielle Mik:

That’s right. We can edit that bit out. Yep.

Mardi Webber:

I think we can all play a huge role. I think that if insurers, claims agents, rehab counselors, if we’ve got a really good understanding of what a mentally healthy workplace is, the benefits of it, we can all play an education role in relation to that. Whenever we’ve got dealings with workplaces, employers, workers to be able to really encourage those workplaces to look at the positive things that they can do to create a really positive and supportive workplace environment where if unfortunately someone is injured, they really feel like they’re supported. Their leaders are on board. It’s going to be a much more, as we know, effective return to work process. Even before that, just, we want to be able to to say, if we are looking at a mentally healthy workplace, it’s also about prevention, preventing these things from happening in the first place or incredible early intervention.

Danielle Mik:

Absolutely.

Mardi Webber:

If we’ve got psychological safety, we’re going to have people that are actually going to be able to talk about their stresses, struggles, or things that are happening in their workplace that they feel uncomfortable with so that it can be addressed early so it doesn’t have to escalate. And then unfortunately, if there is a work injury, then to be able to really support that person so that if there is a, particularly, I’m talking about I guess psychological injury claim, people really feel like there isn’t that stigma and that they’re being treated equally as if they had a physical injury claim. They’re being supported. They’re being communicated with, and so that hopefully that will result in a safer and a quicker return to work for them because we know being at work is really good for our mental health and our wellbeing, particularly we’re in that really good quality work environment. So, it’s good for the worker to be able to get back to work as safe and as soon as they possibly can as well.

Mardi Webber:

So, I think that, yeah, everyone in the claims insurer space, if we have a very good understanding of mental healthy workplaces, we have an understanding of some good tools and resources that workplaces can tap into of the benefits of them going down this path, and I think just being able to provide a little bit of information in that area to encourage workplaces to take those steps, I think all contributes to, yeah, creating mentally healthy workplaces and communities and mentally healthy workplaces as well.

Danielle Mik:

I mean, I guess for employers who have been struggling in this space, if there is an unfortunate situation occurs and someone has an injury, it could sort of provide the launchpad to change the workplace for the claims agent and the rehab council to give feedback which they can then use to start that process of change in their workplace, not just for that person, but for the rest of the people that work there.

Mardi Webber:

Well, that’s exactly right. So, yeah, it’s definitely, it will support that person, but hopefully, it will prevent further injuries in the future, and yeah, really build that positive and supportive workplace environment that we really want to create. And in my role, it’s great. My role here at ReturnToWorkSA in South Australia is that my role, I do provide free assistance and advice to workplaces. So, it could be a range of workplaces. It could be workplaces that just, as you said, have had an injury that really want to look at how they can make sure they can improve their processes and systems and look at that prevention early intervention return to work as well. So, yeah, there’s a lot still that needs to be done, but I’m really optimistic and encouraged by the interest that workplaces really do have in this space, and a lot of those workplaces do have a genuine commitment to providing more effective change in this area as well which is great.

Danielle Mik:

Well, thank you so much, Mardi. That has been fantastic, and I’m sure anyone listening to this will get lots of ideas about what they could do and help demystify it to a certain extent and make it feel doable for them which is great because I think that’s really what we want to try and encourage, get more employers ready to take the steps. So, thank you so much for that. Could talk to you about it all day, but thank you very much for your time and perhaps we can have you back on Pearls of Wisdom another time.

Mardi Webber:

That’s great, and thank you for the opportunity. I think it’s fantastic what you’re doing, Danielle, and I think podcasts are becoming more and more popular, and this is a great way to actually convey information. So, well done to you.

Danielle Mik:

Thank you very much, Mardi. You take care, and talk to you soon.

Mardi Webber:

Okay. Bye. See you.

Danielle Mik:

Bye.