Danielle Mik:

Hi everyone. Today, we’re going to chat with Tricia Garnett about the challenges of developing a mentally healthy workplace in the construction industry. Tricia’s an accredited mental health first aid instructor, a lawyer, and nationally accredited mediator. Tricia’s worked in the compensation sector for more than 20 years and specializes in services to the instruction industry. So welcome, Tricia.

Tricia Garnett:

Thank you.

Danielle Mik:

Thanks for joining me today on the Pearls of Wisdom.

Danielle Mik:

So we’re looking forward to your pearls of wisdom today on this very important topic. Well, Tricia, as we know, the general research is showing that mental health is a big issue for us nationally.

Tricia Garnett:

Yes, it sure is.

Danielle Mik:

And a fifth of Aussies are experiencing mental health conditions. And three quarters of people say that mental health’s an important factor in choosing an employer when implying for a job. Half believe employers should be doing more in this space. And the return on investment by PWC report shows that for every dollar invested, $2.30 gets returned.

Tricia Garnett:

That’s right.

Danielle Mik:

Certainly, the monetary evidence is there to support implementing mentally healthy workplaces. So the question then becomes, so why is that not happening? And in the construction industry, Mates in Construction show that workers, construction workers, are six times more likely to die from suicide than a workplace accident.

Tricia Garnett:

And particularly young workers. Particularly young men.

Danielle Mik:

And particularly young workers. And that 39% of claims in construction workers comp claims are due to workplace harassment, bullying or exposure to occupational violence. So there’s some pretty significant issues there. So love to explore that today and get your take on that. So you are obviously well credentialed in this space as we can see. So what is it that you see that the construction industry employers need to do in order to create a mentally healthy workplace? And I know that’s a very big question. So start where you’re comfortable.

Tricia Garnett:

I think in fairness to the industry, they’ve gone a long way to try to move the culture in terms of the stigma that’s associated around people who are suffering with a mental illness. They’ve still got a long, long way to go. It’s a very complex industry, because if you think of a building site, if you think of a large building site, there’ll be the main builder. But within that site, there’ll be many, many contractors. And there can be concretes, there can be formworkers. There can be people on cranes. They’re all from different companies, all from different employers. So they’re trying to coordinate all those people on a massive building site. And then obviously, as you go down into, say, domestic building, it’s very, very different and that they’re able to control those sites. They’ve got very, very tight timelines to meet.

Tricia Garnett:

So it’s a very hard industry for them to ensure that they implement strategies around good mental health. But everything that you’ve said, the return on investment is really important, but also there’s an obligation under the law to provide a safe workplace. And that’s not just physically, it’s also mentally. So the challenges that the industry faces is still stigma. When I go out to a site where there’s been a fatality, often it’s difficult to deal with people because they’re not comfortable with talking about their feelings and the impact of a traumatic event for them. But what I find is, as long as I make contact with them over a period of a few weeks, eventually they’ll make contact with me and they’ll reach out. But they’re very cautious around being known to get help.

Tricia Garnett:

So even when you provide it, you’ve got really, really good employers who’ve got good mental health strategies in place. Even with those employees that really promote EAP and the importance of EAP, you’ll still get workers who are really coy around making that contact with you. They’ll often make it when they’re off the building site so that people don’t know. And if you use language like, “Look, I’ll get you a psychologist or I’ll get you a counselor.” They’ll go, “Oh, I’m not crazy. I don’t need to see a psychologist.”

Tricia Garnett:

Whereas if you use words like, “I’ll get you support, I’ll get you assistance,” then they’re much more open to it. But because of the size of the employers, it varies in terms of whether or not the company internally will provide a plan around making sure their employees have both physical health, as well as mental health. But the much smaller employers, it’s almost impossible. Even to try and get them to do EAP agreements, it’s very difficult.

Danielle Mik:

So do you think the employers actually understand what it is to create a mentally healthy workplace? And that it’s about so much more than an EAP, it’s from the prevention side of it? Do you think they actually get their head around that?

Tricia Garnett:

The big companies do. The tier ones, obviously, really do, tier two. The bigger companies really know what they’re doing. But even with those companies, it’s still hard to get the message across at a grassroots rank and file level. So often doing things like toolbox talks is really important, making sure that it’s not tokenistic. Also, making sure that they trust that if they make a disclosure to an employer, there’s no punitive action going to be taken against them. So it’s constant. It’s not something that you can do a little bit of and then back off, you’ve got to keep going with it all of the time. And may-

Danielle Mik:

Developing a culture, isn’t it?

Tricia Garnett:

Yeah. And shift in the culture. Shifting the culture from, you’re not a big girl’s blouse in the construction industry or a woman if you show your emotions. So it’s very hard for them in that industry to express that they’re struggling. And they are concerned that they’ll lose their job. And so, it can be very difficult to get that disclosure to happen. But with Mates in Construction, in New South Wales, that’s been absolutely incredible. Because they go down on those big building sites and the first thing they’ll do… Take Barangaroo for example. They all wear hard hats on building sites. So when they go down to a site like Barangaroo, everybody has to do the general awareness of suicide prevention and strategies around that. So it’s just a very short thing that they do, but they get a sicker for the hat called GAT, and they all put it on the hat. So everybody knows that everybody on that site’s done it.

Tricia Garnett:

And then to increase the awareness on the site with, as I say, the rank file, you’ve got the next course is called a connector. And so some people will put their hand up and say, “Look, I’d like to be a connector.” So that person does another course, which provides them with the skills and knowledge to be able to be the connector. So if they see someone struggling on the site, they’re able to go to them. Or for example, I was working on the site and I was worried about you. I could go to the connector and say, “Listen, I’m really worried about my mate. I’m aware that they’ve just split up with their partner. They’re really struggling. They’re missing the kids.”

Tricia Garnett:

So the knowledge is passed on at that really grassroots level. And that really does help a lot. And then what happens with the company I work for, we’ll often work in collaboration with mates because a lot of those companies have got the EAP agreements already with us. So there’s a lot of dialogue that goes on between us. And it helps, but you can only get that information if you’ve got a network of people that provide to promote it at the workplace. And as you said, Danielle, shift the culture.

Danielle Mik:

Yes. From what you said at the beginning, in the construction industry an employer’s managing many subcontractors, so that presents major challenges. Obviously, it’s the culture within each of those sort of micro businesses that the overall construction build and builder has to be responsible for. Do you think that is a barrier for them? It really makes it just seem a bit too hard to do?

Tricia Garnett:

It depends on the individual companies. Some companies are absolutely adamant that they’re going to shift that culture, and they’re going to make that workplace a safe place, as I said, physically and mentally. Obviously, there’re some things that are not in their control. Like, as I said, a really traumatic accident or a fatality. And we tend to think of fatalities in a workplace as an accident, because that’s what gets reported. But what we don’t think about is it often, in construction, heart attacks are a big fatality in the industry. Because these men don’t often look after themselves in terms of their diet. They drink, they smoke, they have lots of coffee, they eat pies and pasties. Their health is not a primary focus for them. So I think, not last year, the year before, because the COVID restrictions weren’t quite the same in construction. I think we went out to six heart attacks.

Tricia Garnett:

And these are guys who work together closely. Often when they’re in those gangs, they work together for many years. Particularly with the small subcontractors. And so suddenly they’re exposed to seeing somebody have a heart attack. So those companies that are serious, those tier ones, tier twos, that are serious, they will get the support to those blokes no matter what. So even if they haven’t got EAP, those other companies pick up the tab, and they’ll look after those blokes, which is really, really important. There’ll be other companies that are not like that.

Tricia Garnett:

The classic fatality that happened here in New South Wales was a young man, called Chris, was only 18, and scaffolding Christian. So if you think of that site, it was almost at the end of conclusion.

Tricia Garnett:

And so there was people from all these different companies, and as a company, we dealt with various, various construction workers that were on that site on that day, and witnessed what happened, and heard what happened. And we were dealing with them six months down the track. But ultimately, all of the companies that we were dealing with, there was no issue around budget. They gave those men the support that they needed. And each of them, as you know Danielle, the way we react to trauma in a critical incident is unique.

Danielle Mik:

Absolutely. Yes.

Tricia Garnett:

It impacts everybody differently. So we had some people who it triggered, and it triggered past memories and things that they’d experienced. Other blokes were like, I’ve been down this path that many times I’m fine. For some people, it was just such a terrible shock. So some people ended up with workers’ comp claims out of it. But there was no hesitation with any of those employers not to support their workers. But it’s a very difficult issue because of stigma.

Danielle Mik:

So do you think Tricia, some of the employers in the construction industry, particularly, I guess, probably the medium to smaller ones, feel they have to have an in-house specialist to manage mental health within the workplace and put in a prevention program? Because a lot of people that I’ve talked to, you hear from them saying, “Oh, that’s beyond my skillset. I don’t know anything about mental health. I don’t feel that I’m qualified to put in place a prevention program.” Do you hear that sort of thing?

Tricia Garnett:

With the larger companies, they’ve got really good HR departments, and I deal a lot with their HR people. And they have that in-house. And what they don’t have in-house, they in-source or outsource. With the smaller companies, it really is beyond their reach. So one of the strategies that men use is, it has an EAP agreement that’s user pay, there’s no retainer fee. So that enables those small companies to be able to have that EAP in place, have all of the information that they need, the publicity that they need around the building site, and it enables them to hook into it. And only if their workers use it, they use it. But those companies, they just don’t have the capacity to have that in-house knowledge. They have to rely on external sources.

Tricia Garnett:

It’s just not possible for them. Their budgets are so tight.

Danielle Mik:

Yeah. So do they articulate what it is… Do employees in this space talk about what they need in order to put in prevention programs?

Tricia Garnett:

I think for the bigger ones, they’re pretty much on the ball. They’re much more aware. The smaller companies, it’s almost like they go along and think that it’s not going to happen to them until it does. And so I don’t think the smaller companies have the understanding that it the WHS Act applies to physical and mental.

Danielle Mik:

Yes.

Tricia Garnett:

I don’t think that’s embedded in the company. Their companies are so small, and as I said before, the budgets are tight, they’re just hoping to get through their contracts and fulfill what’s needed of them. The other issue that you’ve got is labor hire.

Danielle Mik:

Yes.

Tricia Garnett:

Labor hire creates all sorts of problems. Because as you know, when you take somebody, if I’ve got a and I take somebody from labor hire, I’m the host employee, I’m not the employee. And labor hire is big in this industry, if something happens to that person due to a critical incident or a really traumatic event, and they end up on a worker’s comp claim, it’s not the host employee that’s responsible. It’s the labor hire.

Tricia Garnett:

So the big issue for labor hire is if somebody’s injured in the workplace, particularly if it’s around a traumatic event or a critical incident, the company that they’re with is the host employer, they’re not the employer. So then that person has to go back to the labor hire company. And then how do you then get them employment. Once they’ve had that injury, does another host employer want to take the risk of taking that person on? So that becomes even more complex. So for the individual who’s there on labor hire, there’s a reluctance to come forward in terms of, not only physical, but mental health issues. They’ll be covert around it rather than overt.

Tricia Garnett:

So, as I said, the industry’s multi-layered. You’ve got subcontractors, you’ve got labor hire, you’ve got the main company that’s running the site. It’s so, so complex. And they’re all integrated in terms of trying to get the job done. And then amongst all of that, you’ve got the cultural mix. Because often, for example, a form company, like I said before, those guys will have worked with each other for a long time. But you may find that company’s all Lebanese, or that company’s all Asian. So you’ve also got the cultural issues that go on in terms of the workplace as well.

Tricia Garnett:

And then to add to that, even further as the industry’s become more open to women being employed, you’ve now got the mix of women on building sites as well. So you at the gender issue. And the sorts of things that blokes used to be able to say and do on building sites, obviously, that’s much more difficult now that you’re dealing with women on building sites as well. So the industry shifted, as most in industries have shifted as well. So it was very male dominated, and it still is mainly, but you’ve also got the, as I say, women coming into the workforce. So that’s also had to create a shift as well.

Danielle Mik:

Times have changed for sure.

Tricia Garnett:

Yeah. So it’s not an easy industry to just give you that straight answer. What do they need? Because you’re looking at all these different levels of employers.

Danielle Mik:

Yeah. Yeah.

Danielle Mik:

So, clearly, they’ve got a little bit of a distance to go at this point to really get those healthy prevention programs in. So it sounds like they’ve got the EAP thing in place, for people that develop issues. But the prevention side of preventing them getting there is still a bit of work to be done in that space.

Tricia Garnett:

There’s still a lot of work to be done. They’ve done an amazing amount of work. I mean, Mates in Construction demonstrate that by the reduction of suicides. So, by the knowledge that suicides have been reduced dramatically is a big credit to the industry. Because what happens with a program like Mates in Construction that has industry partners. So it’s there for the industry by the industry. And when they go out to deliver sessions, because the industry has industry partners, it’s all paid for. So there isn’t then a reluctance for the employer to call out Mates. So Mates is involved heavily. There is massive, massive shifts going on in the culture of that industry, but like many, many industries, the cultural shift will take years. A long time to go.

Danielle Mik:

Well, thanks for that Tricia, that’s been fantastic, very illuminating. I’m sure that’s great benefit to people who are looking to work in this space, or are working in this space, to know what’s being done. So is there anything else you’d like to add?

Tricia Garnett:

No, it’s just that I think it’s more and more, we’re becoming aware of the importance of mental health and the importance of being healthy in that space. And one of the reasons I became a mental health first aid instructor, is because the industry was asking for it. They didn’t just want the awareness, they wanted to be able to have mental health fair status on their site, which I think is the credit to the industry. So there’s this constant level of change and people embracing the importance of this topic. Lot more to be done though, Danielle.

Danielle Mik:

Yeah. Well, in so many areas, Trish. But if you don’t start, you don’t finish. Isn’t that what they say? So look, thank you so much for your time. That’s been great. Really appreciate you donating your pearls of wisdom to this topic. And appreciate your time. So thank you very much and take care.

Tricia Garnett:

And I look forward to seeing and hearing other interviews. So thank you too. Okay. Thank you. Bye.

Danielle Mik:

No problem. Bye.